It was only a matter of time before we tackled Call Me By Your Name, one of the most influential, and subsequently controversial queer movies of the last decade.
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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!
New episodes every other Thursday.
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Production
- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John
- Editor: Julia Schifini
- Executive Producer: Multitude
- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd
JAZZA: Hello, everybody. Before we kick off this episode, just wanted to quickly thank the two patrons who are supporting us on our highest tier rainbow parent, Jennifer and Toby, you continue to be rather awesome. I also wanted to give a little bit of a content warning for today's episode we touch on. Amongst other things, grooming pedophilia, sexual assault and fetishized cannibalism. So some of our conversations get pretty heavy. If that ain't your thing, feel free to skip this one and come back for the next episode in a couple of weeks. Okay, for the rest of you. Enjoy.
[theme]
JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—
ROWAN: —and worst—
JAZZA: —in LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious moment a time. I thought your tone was quite pointed there, Rowan.
ROWAN: Listen not to spoil what I thought about this movie, but I'm Rowan Ellis.
JAZZA: And I'm Jazza John.
ROWAN: And each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.
JAZZA: This episode genre is—
ROWAN AND JAZZA: Queer.
JAZZA: Today—
ROWAN: That was Autuer for those who needed the translation.
JAZZA: Which is French for author. You're welcome. Today we're going to be talking about one of the most renowned and somewhat infamous. We'll talk about it queer movies of the past 10 years. Call Me By Your Name.
ROWAN: But before we fuck a peach, I guess. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?
JAZZA: So the gayest thing I've done is for once has nothing to do with my sex life.
ROWAN: [shocked]
JAZZA: I know. I have been playing the role for the past three weeks of the model, queer family member who has just been sitting in the middle of all of the arguments and telling everybody to be emotionally intelligent and love each other again, it is a stereotype that the queers step into I guess.
ROWAN: Do the supporting role, the supporting character in the movie of like
JAZZA: Of straight—of straight relatives. Yes, exactly.
ROWAN: Amazing.
JAZZA: And that was just very much my life for the past few weeks. I love my family. I love them sincerely.
ROWAN: Yeah, keep—keep yeah, go—what's that you keep— keep saying it, and will believe.
JAZZA: I'm just letting the ellipses hang.
ROWAN: That's it?
JAZZA: Yeah. How about—how about you?
ROWAN: Um, so I went on a little writing retreat, and I wrote for like, a week with some friends and I wrote so much of my gay that little, little book that I'm writing. It was very fun, and very gay. I haven't actually read over any of the stuff I've written yet, so it might be bad, but I'm gonna pretend like it's fine.
JAZZA: I'm sure some of it is. And I'll tell you in a loving way, though.
ROWAN: Yeah, I—I there's a reason why I haven't sent it to you yet. Well, so I also—it's like a sci-fi. So I feel like maybe I'll end up calling a character Jazza just for like the fun vibes, the Sci Fi vibes.
JAZZA: Rowan, do you not know this? I—every one of our friends that has written a fiction book. I have done my utmost to make them name a character after me. So if our straight friends aren't going to name their children after me, then all of our queer friends are going to name one of the characters in their inevitable books after me. That's how I'm gonna become immortal.
ROWAN: Yeah, and what I might do is you know, maybe try and disguise it by just changing like one letter or something. So maybe the character would just be called Jizzie.
JAZZA: I knew— I knew you were so rude, so cliche.
ROWAN: Oh my gosh, but yeah, I'll definitely make it an extremely cool, cool character. And not some like lame old man.
JAZZA: Great. Love that for us. For me—
[theme]
JAZZA: As I mentioned before the break this film, though, celebrated has seen its fair share of controversies since its release. We are going to do our best before we dive into the plot to touch on them and provide—provide some well needed context, I think.
ROWAN: We will then be reviewing the plot as always, splitting the film into three acts, of course we always do. If somehow you've managed to not see this movie since it came out. You know, go and watch it before listening to rest of the episode, unless like me, you had zero plans of watching it until your podcast co-host like, physically wrestled you into it. In which case just what—just listen to this episode instead.
JAZZA: I think it a—I think it was—it was—it was just about time, you know. The first one back in the new year I felt like it was a good time.
ROWAN: I guess.
JAZZA: Exactly. So, without further ado, let's maybe read a book a bit, then listen to some fall asleep by the pond, and then maybe contemplate my own way before having sex with my childhood friend on a dusty mattress and review, Call Me By Your Name.
ROWAN: Wow.
[theme]
ROWAN: Okay, so the first bit of context that we—I want to talk about is a contexes of something that's within the movie itself, which is the age gap, I'd say in inverted commas, romance. So this is kind of part of the controversy around the movie. I will confess that I have basically, the reason why I hadn't seen the film was because just the very concept of this really icks me out. And so I was I am particularly want to watch this happening on screen. And so I also haven't looked at a lot of like the discourse, commentary and stuff on it. So this is—what I'm about to say is some information from the film, and then my thoughts about it. So the information from the film is one of the characters Elio play by Timothy Chamalet,is 17. And the other character, Oliver played by Armie Hammer is 24. When they were playing those roles, Armie Hammer was a lot older than 24, he was in his 30s. But similarly, Timmy was 20/21, depending on reports, the age that he was when he filmed this varies, but he was wasn't a teenager. However, it is also I think, sort of, we need to point out that, in terms of how it looks, Timmy does look like a teenager, he looks like a boy. And Armie Hammer does look his 30 something years old. So there is the knowledge within the summary of this movie that one of them is 17, one of them is 24. And then there is the visuals that are presented in the movie, as well. And both of these things, I think probably have a—will have an impact on the people who are watching it and how they interpret the movie. And this is at the age gaps scene in queer movies is a thing. I don't think there's any denying that. At age gaps and queer relationships are also a thing. And so I think that on the one hand, you can say, well, age gaps in general in relationships happen, showing them on screen, it's just showing something that happens in reality. So gay movies, like Blue Is the Warmest Color etc, etc, have this as a trope. And it to such an extent that there are almost more lists of queer movies without age gap in like letterbox and recommendations and they are with, it seems like a lot of people are trying to escape from it. But I think the reason why this movie in particular has that controversy element to it, is the 17 year old element that one of them is like a minor. And although you—I'm sure could argue that technically, legally the age of consent do,do,do and for my understand it was 14 at the time in 1983 in Italy, that a lot of these age gaps that we talked about in other movies are between adults who have an age gap, who might be more than this, but they are two adults. And therefore I think a lot of people would say that there are some differences between the relationship and like the favor for example, between Emma Stone's character and uh—
JAZZA: Olivia Coleman.
ROWAN: —Olivia Coleman. Yeah.
JAZZA: My god.
ROWAN: Dear Lord. The memory issues really going—
JAZZA: Cancel her now.
ROWAN: Cancel me. Yeah, between Olivia Coleman and Emma Stone, for example, will probably be seen in a different way because of that. Because I think with age gaps, it's not just the arbitrary idea of like, those are just two numbers with numbers in between them, I think it is the idea of a difference in experience as well as age, that can heighten an age gap into an area that might feel predatory. And I think that that is especially interesting to discuss when we're talking about queer relationships uh in media, because predatory stereotypes are such a huge part of the kind of stereotypes around queer people, right? It's like, if you look at back, with section 28, or with Anita Bryant, the idea of like, queer people are inherently predatory and dangerous to have around children. And all this kind of stuff feels like it adds an extra layer of complication on to this kind of story. I would say that from my point of view within this film, and I know that the book is from Elio's point of view. And I think the movie also gives the story to us from the point of view of this teenager. And so I can understand there being an element of like, the music, it's very romantic, for example, because we're in this character's point of view. And from his point of view, it's like the most romantic thing to happen. And it's this like, clandestine relationship and he's—it's because his burgeoning sexuality and all this kind of stuff. And I also think that just because something is in a film, or in a book, it doesn't mean it's being endorsed necessarily by the author or the writers or the director. However, I do think that all of the marketing and a lot of the framing around this movie does want to paint it as this big romantic journey for this character and this big relationship. So that includes the music, that includes the marketing, that includes like the conversation with the understanding parent to kind of like lampshade the idea of like, hey, audience, you might think this is relationships a bit dodgy, but this parent, his own parent says it's fine. So actually, I think you're fine, it's fine. So yeah, I kind of came into this thinking, trying to look at it with an open mind, but kind of thinking like, at the very most it's going to—I'm going to just find it a bit icky. But I have to admit, when I was watching the movie, I like actively were seeing stuff that looked like grooming to me, or that had issues with consent on both sides. And so for me, it was like, less of just the age gap as a general concept and more of specifically, like a minor and an adult in a relationship in which it was very unhealthy, but was being portrayed as this like, sort of Romeo and Juliet, like secret beautiful love, like fleeting, one summer, you know, vibe that I didn't necessarily—didn't necessarily vibe with in that sort of way. I was seeing it more was like, oh, this is like everything this—this character is doing is—is clearly he is a child. And he's like cuddling with his parents. And he's like shaving his non existent mustache. And he's like, being really bratty. And then there's, like, this adult character who's very confident and very, like self assured and, and it just felt very strange to me. I don't know how you felt about that element of the film Jazza. But that was—we sort of assign ourselves to listen, I think we've mentioned this before, sort of elements of the context that we each want to dive into, and then the other one kind of probably presented to each other in the moment. So I don't know how you felt about this Jazza from your perspective.
JAZZA: Yeah, I remember, this was the second time that I have watched this movie. And I remember the first time having a very similar reaction to the one that you just did. So I was a little bit fed up with the like yet another large age gap representation. One where it was a like, Chalamet's character is very codified as kind of like a young child especially at the beginning of the movie. We've kind of like all of the things that he does, like his brattiness as well as like the—like the—the shaving the mustache, I think is kind of like one of the—the clear things of like this really segments his boyhood. The visuals as well I will go with you of Hammer and Chalamet, as the—I don't care what the says, this is a romantic movie.seeing those two as romantic leads, it is quite jarring with the way that they look because it looks like a fully grown man and a boy. That said, a lot of the—a lot of the background work that I did on thi, on Call Me By Your Name, span off of a really great video essay that Lola Sebastian did, which I will link in the show notes. And I will encourage anybody who really, really wants a thorough, thoughtful, nuanced, deep dive into this movie and its context. And the way that kind of like all of these, especially the controversies intersect, how the Internet has talked about them, I'd encourage you to go and watch that video essay. She was really, really good at articulating the way that this film seems very much to be. And I think one of the intentions of it, and you can see it in the way that a lot of the artistic shots and the way that it's filmed and the—the score as well, how this is meant to be an idealized version of a memory that Timothy, Timothy Chalamet. That Chalamet's character is having. I think when you read this as the memory that Chalamet has of this romance that he had, as he was growing up, I think that that contextualizes what I think it is in lots of different ways. I—I wouldn't go as far as saying that it looks like grooming because I think that Hammers character has a lot of vulnerabilities and in many ways seems a lot less, like even less experienced than Chal—than Chalamet's character in many—in many ways his innocence.
ROWAN: I don't think that, that precludes grooming, right? Because there's a load of stuff he does. Where it's like this is I think—I think as well if you're going to argue that it is a rose tinted, like version of the memory. You can also say hey, there isn't behaviors that he's exhibiting where he's like getting him alone and taking them on special trips, that only they get to go on. And then like all of this kind of stuff that's like textbook grooming, that then I could—I could just as easily see that being twisted to be like okay, so all of those things where he's like, no, we shouldn't, it will be too naughty of us. Like seen by him as this like, oh, you know, he was just—he was looking out for me. He—he said we could wait until I was 16. Like he said, we would wait until I was 16 kind of energy, that I think is a bit touche. I—I would argue that the reading of it being his memory holds way more weight, if they had kept the canon of the book, which is that it is a memory. The fact there's no like framing device used in the movie, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable giving you that generosity of like—
JAZZA: Sure. It's less obvious. Yeah.
ROWAN: There's no point is even having a ration at the beginning. Like a lot—even a line of him being like, it was like, so long ago, that hot summer in 1983. Like there's none of that. So I do think it's from his point of view—
JAZZA: Fair enough.
ROWAN: But I wouldn't necessarily say that the— that the movie feels like it's obviously from the point of view of someone grown up looking back, because there's no framing device that suggests that to me.
JAZZA: I do think I—I do think that that is there in the way that it is shot. And I do think that it's there. I do think it's there. But I will agree that it isn't obvious. And I think that the grooming stuff. Yeah, I think it—I think that there's no getting away from it. I think it is problematic. However, the second time that I watched this, and I—and like I said I had a lot of the same kind of hang ups that you had. However, the second time watching this movie through, I ended up really identifying with Chalamet's character in a way that I never did, the first time that I watched it, because I too, was a teenage gay, and I too had relationships with older men. And there's a lot of it and like, like you said in real life, queer relationships, larger age gaps are more common for a variety of reasons, not least, because there's fewer of us, not least because very often, we don't have the kind of guidance from elder figures in families or whatever that may be we turned to those who are queer and older in our communities, and sometimes that forms relationships—romantic relationships, but I saw a lot of kind of like the emotions of Chalamet's character, like reflected in the experience that I had of kind of like that. First, kind of like almost fearful, like, do you dive into this? That's the central question. Like, do you—like, do you act on these feelings? That's the central question of the movie.
ROWAN: See, I think that is the tricky thing about around the movie. It's like, there isn't—you can't say that this is some unrealistic, like weird thing that's been conjured from the mind of a—of the director, you know what I mean? Like—
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: —there is a lot of reality going on in here. And I think that it's—the very fact that like, both of us have a different interpretation of what's going on here isn't necessarily a film, I feel like has a particular thesis to it, where they literally say what they want you to think about this relationship and whether it's good or bad, or healthy or unhealthy or whatever. And I think you can read into it, and say, okay, well, this could be evidence of them, saying that it's meant to be some kind of epic romance, or this isn't an element of saying that it's unhealthy or whatever. But I think for me, it was just the experience of watching it was like, oh, this is just so like, I just have like a very visceral reaction to it. But in the same way, there will be people who will see themselves in these characters or like in this particular dynamic that will have an equally visceral reaction that's based on whatever emotions they have about their own experiences that run parallel to this as well.
JAZZA: And I think that it's a bi— it's a— it is a nuanced story, that we are allowed to have kind of like the—these different and kind of like complex emotions about. I do not think that it is necessarily a, a great romantic epic. I think in many ways, actually, this is more of a tragedy.
ROWAN: Oh, yeah.
JAZZA: Than it is a romance.
ROWAN: Oh 100%.
JAZZA: Especially with the way that it ends. But yeah, just so that we don't spend too much time talking about the age gap thing. I think this is a—a good point for me to bring in some of the—the other background—
ROWAN: The other background—
JAZZA: —of this.
ROWAN: —that's come about. Jazza, tell me what you were researching this week.
JAZZA: I read a really long Vanity Fair article about Armie Hammer, whose name is Armand.
ROWAN: Oohhh.
JAZZA: Did you know that?
ROWAN: No, I didn't.
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: What a fun— wha—what a nice way of you stalling what you're about to talk about Jazza, allegedly.
JAZZA: And it's still a allegedly. So one of the big burdens that hangs around the neck of this movie, is the fact that Armie Hammer is one of the two leads at it. And Armie Hammer was one of the people who all maybe had a bit of a consequential pandemic, shall we say? So Armie Hammer during the pandemic, there were lots of allegations against him. Those have ended up, it's important to say not being pursued in court. But then there were lots of leaked messages from women who had dated Armie Hammer, where it seemed that he was at least role playing. And there were alleged conversations, face to face that he had about this around cannibalism. Now, to be clear, the—the kink of cannibalism does not mean that Armie Hammer is a cannibal.
ROWAN: We're not saying Armie Hammer has eaten anybody, just to make it clear.
JAZZA: We're just to— just to make it clear. So since the allegations of sexual abuse and the revelations of his alleged kink around cannibalism came out, Armie has had a rough couple of years and has been—was dropped from his agency and dropped from a number of projects, even being completely edited out of at least one of them at time of us recording. The fact that Armie Hammer plays the role of the older person in this big age gap relationship also makes it very difficult watch. And I can understand why this makes it a very difficult watch for many people. Armie Hammer is also kind of like, it's somewhat of a problematic person anyway, based on the fact that he kind of like rode the wave of like pseudo feminism, and from being from a rich family was then able to basically got his way into Hollywood through all of these kinds of like indie projects and stuff like that. So that is what I have been reading.
ROWAN: Oh that is such fun. I also think it's very important to know that since this, Timothy has been in accountable movie, which I think is just the wildest turn of events.
JAZZA: Yeah, I heard just to spite Armie Hammer.
ROWAN: Just to spite Armie Hammer. And it's really—so this is, I think, really interesting, to—like so relevant to this movie. But just as a thing that's been obviously I feel like it'd be strange for us not to talk about this, when it's such a huge part of like, what has happened since around like the mythos of this movie, is the fact that like the sexual abuse allegations, like the—the cannibalism kink kind of sense that used to sensationalize, what were like, actual serious allegations, because as Jazza said, listen, if you like to do dirty talk about eating someone's toes, then like, all power to you like, that's all fine. As long as everything consensual, it's great. I think it's that lack of the consent issue, that is the issue. But also, I imagine that Timothy is probably quite relieved that he is—
JAZZA: The sequel isn't being made anymore.
ROWAN: —that the sequel isn't being made anymore. And I think a lot of people are kind of like, oh, nope, this isn't a vibe. And so I think that it's something that is always kind of going to be attached to the legacy of this movie. And that is a part of me that, that is like actually, probably these allegations were even unconsciously in the back of my mind. We're watching it now, and I don't know if I would have had a different like visceral experience watching it before then or whether it would have been the same for me.
JAZZA: And even—and even outside of this. There's one more thing that
ROWAN: Okay, another.
JAZZA: Yeah, there's one more thing that I think that we should consider here. So the Vita of the original book, Andre Aciman is also become a somewhat controversial figure. He did an interview in a Air Catalonia, which is a Spanish publication, saying, and I quote a translation here, I see 12 year old girls, and I find them attractive, which understandably—
ROWAN: Isn't good.
JAZZA: Bad.
ROWAN: Bad in fact, some might say. And I think as well, like this is—this is—this is one of those things where it's like, okay, if we're going to be talking about the idea of authorial intent, and all that kind of stuff, like all of this stuff does get messy, and it is on one level that it is like an intellectual exercise of like, can you separate the art from the artist? I think it's also a practical exercise of do you want to financially support someone who behaves in a certain way or, or think certain things. And then there's the emotional idea of like, you're not necessarily logically thinking about it, you just have an emotional visceral reaction, whether negative or positive to certain stuff. And I think those things are all very complicated and mixed together, in a way that means that it's compli—It's complicated essentially.
JAZZA: Yeah. 100%. And like, you can approach this or at least try to approach this with like a depth of the other thing. I think it is, I think with Call Me By Your Name, it is possible—for me anyway, it is possible to watch this without kind of like it then being something that ties wit— ties back to that, I think it has artistic merit and artistic context, without the stuff around and stuff around Armie Hammer tainting it. However, I think it's still important that you know that those are things that are swimming around in the primordial soup of what happened when society met this movie. And if you don't kind of like acknowledge those things and understand those things, that means that you don't understand the wider context of kind of like how this movie fits into our society properly.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: Of course you can not—you can—you can enjoy the art separate from that. But then once that art is into intersecting with everything else, then there's—let's just say background reading that you have to do.
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: That's quite a lot of it.
ROWAN: And I think it's also very legitimate to be like, actually, nope.
JAZZA: Oh, sure.
ROWAN: And also, but—but—but like, for example, the fact of like, hey, you can have this source material, which is this book, and you come at it from a—the point of view of the gay director who directed this movie and be like, okay, I see something in this experience of my experience, as a boy having an experience like Elio did, and I would like to reflect that very particular nuanced experience on film, in a way that is, since we're talking about the other genre, I guess, within this movie, with an authorial intent that comes less from the original writer of the book, and more from the, like a queer creator of the movie. But again, all of this is very complicated. And I think that like, this is one of the reasons why I think this movie is interesting to talk about, because there—there are so many ways to interpret it. And so many external things and internal things in the movie that are, I think, for a lot of people aren't even necessarily logically explainable as to how they feel about it, whether it is because of their own personal experience, or their experience of of this in other movies that makes them either more used to it, or more heightened ly aware of the potential problematic nature. But having said that I guess, shall we talk about the movie itself?
JAZZA: Shall we actually do that now?
ROWAN: Yeah.
JAZZA: Let's go.
[theme]
JAZZA: Hello, friends Jazza here for the ad read. As returning listeners will know, we are part of Multitude, a collective of creators who make stuff for your ears, as in audio, not like so anything like that. This week, we want to give a shout out to one of our sibling shows, Games and Feelings. Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games, join question keeper, Eric Silver, and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Since you know, you got to play games with other people. And we're talking every single type of game. Let's go, video games of all stripes, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, d&d podcasts, the companies and workers that make these games. Anything you can think of really. Questions will include how do you convince people who have only played Monopoly, to play the new board game that you grabbed at the game shop? Is an escape room a good third date? And what makes video games cozy? And are there any recommendations? Eric and his friends answer any and all questions as long as they're games related. If you like what you hear and want to level up your emotional intelligence stat, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Friday. We're also continuing to be supported by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. We have in the past talked about how we use Squarespace extensively as professional internet people for website creation, giving us access to analytics. So we know where everybody is clicking through from, and the creation of email campaigns, so that we can, you know, bypass the algorithm to get to all of our followers. And also, we use it as a convenient way to be able to connect all of our social media in one place. We know that you hear a lot of your favorite creators, podcasts, media's, offering their discount codes, but it would really help us out at the Queer Movie Podcast if you use us and supported the Queer Movie Podcast. All you need to do, to do that is go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true, you can use the offer code, Queer Movie, that's all one word, to save 10 percentage points of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. Now back to the show.
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ROWAN: Okay, I actually have some titles for the parts for this one.
JAZZA: I will happily see to use let's go.
ROWAN: Because we have previously in the last few episodes, it has just been Jazza. So part one, I have named Dance Like No One is Watching. Oh God, Why Am I Watching. Which could also be the party and its aftermath. In fact, again, there's a few parties and their aftermaths in here, which you know, longtime listeners of the show will know is a thing that queer movies do have. And we saw it in the summer of 1983 and skinny boy Tommy is you know speaking French and being topless in northern Italy. Classic. Essentially Timothy playing Elio is on holiday with his parents who are academics and his father as an archaeologist/digger, rapper, dredger of old things Professor man, and his mum is a posh woman. And—
JAZZA: Yeah, just a—just a multi lingual, a polyglot. Sometimes French, sometimes American who knows?
ROWAN: Can speak German—
JAZZA: Yeah.
ROWAN: —very talented family. And we see the kind of inciting incident is that Oliver? This guy who is going to be spending the summer with them, this academic they seem to take in academics every year of the summer, comes in exhausted, collapses on the bed of Elios room, because Elios has been moved next door. And essentially we find out that this guy is staying for the summer. And Elio is a—is a boy from a very talented family who also is very talented. He's a music boy, and loves to—loves to be an angsty teenager who plays music except when his parents want him to.
JAZZA: Exactly. Um he's literally sitting there transcribing Bach, which I can't imagine.
ROWAN: Pretentious little 17 year old.
JAZZA: Pretentious little shit. Can you imagine being 17 and actually being like him.
ROWAN: He's like the word precocious in the dictionary you look at it's a picture of Elio.
JAZZA
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