In which Rowan dives deep with the founder of the Bi Pan Library, Bren Frederick, to talk about owls, trio-protagonists and bi awakenings in the this week's episode.
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About The Show
Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.
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ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst and LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we are joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I am very excited to welcome, Bren Frederick.
BREN: Hello.
ROWAN: Yay. who, amongst basically professional bisexuals, um in same way that I'm a professional homosexual. The founder of the Bi Pan library, which you've never heard of, I beg you to google it. It is an incredible resource for kind of Bi Pan and M-spec books. Chef's kiss, wonderful staff, we love to see it. And so you know, also my friends. So I was like, please come on the podcast, love to chat to my friends in a professional capacity.
BREN: I'm very happy to be here.
ROWAN: So as we normally do at the very start of these episodes, when we talk about the what movies made you queer format, we like to also specify you know, queer is—queer is not necessarily how everyone identifies. So what words do you use to de— to describe your identity? What is the official title of this episode? Bren Frederick, movies that made me blank.
BREN: Movies that made me bisexual, genderqueer. Those are the main words that I use. I also just use queer as sort of a blanket term for myself. All of that would be accurate.
ROWAN: Amazing. We have had a fair few people who have done these guests' former episodes. And they—some of them have doubled up with the—the kind of things that they wanted to talk about. There's a lot of people where it's like, oh, these— these particular movies or these particular characters really sparked something in —in many bisexual people, I only know, many queer people. You did send me some previews of some of the stuff you're going to talk about, and I am potentially—potentially going to bet, put money on the fact that no one else is going to have your choices because you have chosen some truly wild, wild picks. And so I would love to hear about your first one. In whatever order you decide, most hinge to least hinge. Um, earliest to most recent. What have you fancy, go for it?
BREN: Okay, well, my fri—for my first movie, I've chosen Hoot from 2006. It's based on the novel Hoot by Carl Hiaasen. And it's rated a whopping 26% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.
ROWAN: Oh my God.
BREN: I don't—I think I'm in the wro—on the wrong podcast for anyone to know what movie I'm talking about.
ROWAN: on the wrong planet?
BREN: Have you seen this film, Rowan?
ROWAN: No, I had no idea it existed and you sent me—I'm glad that you didn't send me just that information that you sent me the poster because I feel like I got more of a sense of what was going on. In that, it also has some quite famous people in it. This isn't some like—
BREN: Before they were.
ROWAN: Like random indie movie that like no—we've never heard of. Like these are— these are some big names.
BREN: Yeah, like surely Brie Larson has been mentioned on this podcast before, surely.
ROWAN: If not an injustice has been done.
BREN: Yeah.
ROWAN: But yeah, Brie—Brie Larson in it.
BREN: Yep. This is I believe her first like main role in a film, I could be wrong. And she has a pop single over the credits.
ROWAN: Okay, the fact I didn't know that it's truly—
BREN: Yeah.
ROWAN: Truly a—an injustice. Absolutely. So okay, what is the plot of this movie? Like, what—if—if people are sitting down thinking wow, 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, that seems like a gem. Brie Larson singing a pop song. I'd watch it. What is—what is actually going on in this movie?
BREN: Right. So it isn't a musical. We'll start there. It was just this thing that happened in the Arts where like, leading girls and women would sing a song and it would go over the credits. And we just all accepted that was how it was. I don't know if everyone was trying to start a pop career at that point. So the main character is our boy Roy Eberhardt, played by Logan Lerman, who you might know is—
ROWAN: A not a star-studded cast.
BREN: Percy Jackson himself, which I never saw, because um, yeah.
ROWAN: You heard the rumors about how bad it was. And you were like, I will—I will simply no, be watching this.
BREN: No, it was uh. Well, I grew up very conservative Christian. So it was like, pagan nonsense.
ROWAN: Oh, yeah. No, that's of course. Yeah. e—equally valid as an excuse, I guess.
BREN: Essentially, it's about a—there's three kids who, Roy, Beatrice, the bear, and Beatrice's stepbrother, who's only known as Mullet Fingers. Mullet as in—
ROWAN: Wha—what?
BREN: Mullet isn't a, the little fish.
ROWAN: Yeah, okay, that makes more sense in the little—like little tiny wigs on all his fingers.
BREN: That's a completely different movie. So they become friends. Roy is new in town, he's not fitting in. He's from Montana. And He's new in Florida. It's set in the Florida Everglades.
ROWAN: Sure, yeah. That seems like a place that exists.
BREN: And I—I could really make an argument for this film being anti-capitalist, anti-cop.
ROWAN: Pro mullet.
BREN: Because, because the center—the center of this plot is these kids are trying to stop a big franchise Pancake House from being built on this little lot that has a bunch of burrowing owls and endangered burrowing owls. Carl Hiaasen, who wrote the book is an environmentalist and really involved in a lot of efforts to save the Florida wetlands. And all of anything that comes from this man is trying to save the birds.
ROWAN: This is—I mean that sounds like a delightful movie.
BREN: Yeah. But—but how did it's make me queer?
ROWAN: the question. Yeah. the wet like, I get that like gay people like birds or whatever, but like, Where's—where's the connection for you here?
BREN: None of these three kids fit into the gender role they're supposed to fit into. And that's not at all central to like, that's not what the—the movie is trying to tell you. But it's the thing that I picked up on as a kid. Roy is very sensitive and gentle and kind and emotional about these little birds. Beatrice is a star athlete at the school, she's a soccer player. She's very tough, all the boys are afraid of her. She can outrun anybody, like, she's—she, and she's known as the bear. She has this very like, masculine, tough nickname. And then Mullet Fingers is a runaway from his family. His family does not understand him, doesn't treat him well. And he would rather go live, like he literally lives like in a swamp, kind of, and feels far more connected to nature and animals than with humanity. And that sort of— is that distance from what you're supposed to be. And also, it's an entirely platonic film. Also, like, there's moments where you might think like, maybe Roy and Beatrice have a crush on each other, maybe near the end. But it's not central at all. And they have this very equal, platonic, caring friendship. At one point, Beatrice like stays the night in Roy's bedroom. They're like, middle schoolers, and they just have a nice, like, emotional conversation. There's no implication of anything romantic there. And it's—it's very, very sweet. And, well that was so important to me as a kid, where I was just kind of drawn to people of any kind as friends, as crushes. And it was so much media at the time, like the 90s. And the arts, was very aggressively gendered, very aggressively, heterosexual.
ROWAN: Yeah.
BREN: And prescriptive. And this movie didn't do that to me. And I thought I felt so safe there. I watched it so frequently on my little portable DVD player that we would have had at the time.
ROWAN: Okay, so you've seen something truly incredible. Just that and without description. Bren, because you've made me want to watch this movie.
BREN: Watch it with me.
ROWAN: That is 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, we absolutely need to have a, like a Netflix zoom party situation with this because it sounds adorable. And I definitely understand what you mean about the the idea of having these sorts of possibilities put before you, especially ones that didn't fit into this very prescriptive idea that showed you a world where you didn't have to fit into this particular, like mode, this particular type. And I think that that's always so exciting to see that it doesn't necessarily have to be that you are like, oh, yes, this one character is who I am. But just the idea of like, you can have a character who's rejected their family, or you can have a character who is breaking the norms. It doesn't have to be the norms that you want to break, but it still has that element of, you know, something that feels relatable, especially I think, to young queer people that makes complete sense to me.
BREN: Yeah, something I was noticing, as I was looking back over the movies I thought I might talk about today was, I was very drawn to movies with at least three main characters rather than a central protagonist, a hero or heroine. Because if there are three people of any gender, one of them is going to end up sidestepping out of some sort of prescriptive gender rule. Because they need it to be three different dynamic characters. So if there's a man and a woman and then a sidekick of any gender, that sidekick is going to be breaking some sort of gender norm. And I was always the most attached to that third person. And those—those were always the most comfortable to me because I could sort of patchwork together the things that I related to from all of these uh different archetypes I guess.
ROWAN: Yeah, I mean, thinking about just the idea of the like, I'd know the Lizzie McGuire like three relationship kind of teen show element of like you had the—the main girl who was like pretty much the like normal girl kind of thing. The boy who was like, you know, some flavor of boy that probably might end up being a love interest of some kind. And then the lesbian best friend um, truly does the one on the side, which we love to see. So you know Buffy because similar energy with the willow, the lesbian best friend on the side. I love that. I mean, did you have any inkling at the time of like what this meant to you? Or is this one of those things where you look back on it and you're like, oh, boy, this has really given me some a—some info about myself as a child.
BREN: Certainly not the gender part of it. That—that I have, I am still entangling as an adult. But at the time, I was extremely preoccupied with Brie Larson in the film. I had a crush on all of those main characters, like Logan Lerman, and Brie Larson, and whoever the other guy was, he doesn't—I don't think he acts anymore.
ROWAN: Mullet Fingers. He should just be known as Mullet Fingers from now on. Great kid. I don't know. What a guy.
BREN: But I—I was very preoccupied with Beatrice, who she was—she was so tough and cool. She was also feminine. I was very attracted to her, and I couldn't, you know, it was that classic situation of not knowing if you want to be her, or, if you like her. So I would like try to do my hair like her and didn't like it, and didn't know what the deal was with that. So but at the time, like I hadn't—it had not hit my consciousness yet. What it meant that I was so drawn to her or that I was so drawn to like my close female friends with whom I had very intense relationships and didn't understand why they were so intense either. So no, it wasn't conscious at all. I didn't have my first realization that I might like girls, much less all of the rest of it until I was 15, or 16. And that was maybe a week. I had maybe a week where I was thinking a lot about that. And then I repressed it so hard. It didn't come back up again until I was 18 or 19.
ROWAN: I mean, here's the thing. That sucks real hard. But also, as you know, this podcast and me, myself is all about distance from real emotions, and therefore incredible work. Well, honestly, that was—
BREN: I deserve an award.
ROWAN: You really decided to repress it. I knew you committed diligence, you know, years-long repression. Incredible work. Do you have any of these examples that you feel like we're part of that? Either that initial realization or the subsequent realizations later on? Has it been anything that you've really felt like, oh, this is a part of that realization of that feels like it factors into it? Or is it always been sort of before and after the fact?
BREN: I've only had a few that had to do with media. And one of them was a book, which I don't know if you want to talk—me to talk about it.
ROWAN: I—I'll allow it. Considering that you're a librarian, and I guess I'll allow you to talk about this film podcast, this audio-visual podcast.
BREN: Yeah. The—the first book that I read with bisexual main characters, book called Far From You by Tess Sharpe. It's a young adult, mystery thriller, like murder mystery thriller, about a girl whose secret girlfriend is dead. So, you know.
ROWAN: The classic.
BREN: We did bury her. And then later in the book, she starts developing a relationship with a boy. And both of those relationships are treated as equally real, equally emotionally deep. The author is queer herself. And I remember when I read it, I didn't know that about this book before I picked it up. So when I got to this part of the book, where I realized what was happening, and the girls are kissing on the page, I was sitting in a church. And I had this like, this sense of like, collapse around me. There's a stained glass window, you know, to the side of me with a cross on it. And I'm reading this book it's like, just this like, lightning bolt through me of connecting dots suddenly. Um, like every girl in a movie that I've been like really fixated on. And every girl I knew in real life, who was—I was just—I didn't know why I was so drawn to her. And it was very, very intense. And that, that would have been when I was 18-Ish. And that one I couldn't—I couldn't repress after that. It was just—it was too intense, too much at once. I was just old enough, I think to have this sense of like separated identity. I had a job outside the house like I emerged from, from needing to be so self-protective. And it was, it was very scary. I don't know that it was a good experience exactly at the time.
ROWAN: I thin—I mean, I think that it's like with movies. I kind of can understand a sense of understanding of your sexuality through crushes or movie characters or even understanding gender through a kind of gender envy element of the presentation of characters. But I do—but I do understand this element of books to go into the like interiority of someone in a way that movies can't necessarily get to, or sometimes we'll have to use the language of books through like voiceovers, something like that to get to. And so I can absolutely see like, not just the concept of two girls being able to kiss, but just like what was going on inside the mind of a character, while that was happening. That would give it validity that would connect with internal emotions that were happening inside as well.
ROWAN: That's a really good point. I haven't—I hadn't thought about that before. And it is written in first person, I believe. So even—even more of that character's thoughts. Just sort of turn into your thoughts as you're reading and yeah, Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting.
ROWAN: I mean, rebrand the queer book podcast. Coming to you soon the spin-off series. That is really interesting. And also like such a no offense, but you do—that does sound like a scene from YA movie that you just—you just said, you were like yeah, I was in church, and I read and it suddenly connected everything. And I'm like, I can see it now. I can see that montage. You know,
BREN: It's very cinematic.
ROWAN: Watching back to your head.
BREN: Yeah. Yeah. Today, we're gonna talk about the movie of my life.
ROWAN: Hmm. Oh my gosh, love to like really excited for your new movie and your—your new biography, new bio. Bio pickle, biopic. I fully don't—
BREN: I've always said biopic, but—
ROWAN: So have I. And then everyone says—saying biopic, and I was like, oh, no, am I about to embarrass myself in front of film bros? But I saw—I just, you know what, maybe I'll never say the word again. Maybe I'll just pick the pronunciation of the person who says it first within the exact context that I'm in, and it'll be fine. I would love to hear about your next movie pick.
BREN: Alright. Speaking of girls that I had strangely intense friendships with. Princess Diaries.
ROWAN: Were you—were you friends with Anne Hathaway? Is that what we're trying to—is that what's happening?
BREN: Oh man. No. I wish. I did have a huge crush on Anne Hathaway. But specifically, I have picked this film, because of Lily Moskovitz played by Heather Matarazzo. Real-life lesbian.
ROWAN: Confirmed.
BREN: Confirmed lesbian. There is such a great friendship between Lily and Mia in the film, and in the books, which are also very good. And neither of these characters is queer in the movie. I don't think—I don't think there are any even implied queer characters in Princess Diaries that I can remember.
ROWAN: There is uh—I can—I can tell you the Princess Diaries story law keepers here. I think—I believe that there is one mentioned character, which is in the montage scene where they going through—
BREN: In number two.
ROWAN: Number two.
BREN: Yes.
ROWAN: And they're going through and saying like, oh, what are some eligible bachelors for me to marry? And there's one of them where it's like, he's very happy—she's just like, oh, he's very handsome. And the bodyguard says, yeah, his boyfriend thinks so too. And it's like, oh, good for him.
BREN: Yeah.
ROWAN: Okay, moving on.
BREN: Right on. Yes, you're right. You're right. But I think—I think that's it. But Lily is so proudly different, stubbornly different, like different, so on purpose, And has a very close and long friendship with Mia. And through the movie, we see Mia start to change and she starts moving more towards a more feminine presentation, more traditionally attractive presentation, and also towards relationships with boys, which neither of them had really had to worry about before what happens in the film.
ROWAN: No—I mean, not mean, I feel like we can give—I'm gonna spoil the premise of Princess Diaries in case anyone is—for some reason, like, has managed to in life and not understand the premise of Princess Diaries. There's a girl, she finds out that her dad was the prince, and now that he is dead. She, in fact, is meant to be the next ruler of this obscure and fictional European country. And she is plucked out of her life as a high schooler in America and has to be taught by her grandmother, and various teachers how to be a princess, which includes straightening her curly hair, taking off her glasses, like all of these classics, like the transformation tropes really go really hard in this movie.
BREN: They really do.
ROWAN: And that and so like, yeah, what's happening in the movie is that she is being transformed into a literal Princess, like the most feminine, ideal style, kind of caricature that you could think of for better or for worse.
BREN: Yeah, yeah. And some of it, she's fine with and some of it, she feels as ridiculous. And that's—that's an interesting discussion in itself, I think in that film. That she does have to pretend in some ways. And some ways, she embraces the change and sort of figuring out which of these things that I'm conforming to, to identify with and which don't tie. But back to Lilly. Lilly is absolutely furious through a lot of the movie. Because of all these changes, she's very intimidated. And I think feels very defensive of their relationship and how it might change because how Mia looks and acts and her priorities are changing. She's very disdainful of the boy that Mia has such a big crush on for a lot of the movie. And I just remember relating to that so much as a kid who—when my friends had crushes on somebody else, or, you know, the special friends that I had a special connection to that putting us, could definitely couldn't be put into a simple and short word that we have for that situation. I mean, whoever that friend had a crush on was my mortal enemy. Like, the—there was no greater betrayal. Why did she need him? I—I didn't need somebody else. I was happy. I had this friendship. And like I didn't— I could list off a couple boy's names to like get, get people off my tracks I guess. But that was a feeling. And that movie that—that I always projected onto it was, that Lilly was feeling what I was feeling when I was young.
ROWAN: And this is really interesting, right? Because this is a character who's not portrayed in the movie like this is correct. Right? So in the movie—
BREN: Exactly.
ROWAN: She says, she says things—like she has a talk show that's called Shut up and Listen. Like it's—it's very much—she's portrayed as like this annoying. bullheaded self-righteous feminist. Like, if she likes she's going too far, like me as the one in the middle who has their head screwed on right? Who's finding the you know, the middle ground and Lilly's the one who's just being too extreme, which I think is really interesting that like, even though the sort of implications of this movie, in terms of like, that element of Lilly's personality is not something that you're necessarily encouraged to appreciate. That you still found an appreciation for it, even without being kind of like spoon-fed to you as like, oh, this is a character— characters you're meant to support, that you still found a connection to it?
BREN: Oh, yeah, I certainly wasn't like Lilly was meant to be such an extreme character. That is like, has a good heart, but it goes too far. Whereas Mia is also an activist and also like, remains, you know, she still has feminism at her heart, but she's doing it in this much more controlled, tamed feminine way. I actually think—you know what I ac—I actually think that like, as much as I love this movie, still, I think that it also did kind of hush me up a little bit. Like it, both—It both made me queer and made me quiet for a little bit longer. Because it showed so much of a more respectable way to be different, be a girl, and be an activist. Is that like, you find the respectable way to do it? You aren't too loud. So like not to criticize the movie. I came here to praise but.
ROWAN: I mean, I think—here's the thing, though, like, because you can have movies that were influential to you. That you are like, these are still not perfect. Or like even— even that they were influential to you, because you were like, oh, absolutely not, like this has made me angry. And this is like been a part of my journey in that way. Like, I feel like all of those kinds of things are very valid.
BREN: Oh, sure. I don't think any of the movies that I'm bringing today are—are perfect.
ROWAN: Not even Hoot?
BREN: Not even hoot. It's a little too sensitive—sensitive to one of the main characters who was a cop.
ROWAN: Okay, I see. I see. And then at that time, when you—when you were watching, I'm imagining that this was not something that you were like, consciously being like, I guess a crush or like, oh, yes, a character who is like me, because I'm different. Because of these reasons. It was—it was kind of free that realization I'm assuming.
BREN: Yeah. Well, because all the characters who I relate to now, I look back on these films, I'm like, I related to that person, like maybe on a gender way. At the time, I thought I was relating to the other character who was more respectable, more feminine, and straighter. That's who I thought I was relating to, which was—was not the case. So it's—it's this backward patchwork thing. Like I was saying about who where I thought that from a gender perspective, I was relating to the character I was attracted to.
ROWAN: Hmm. Yeah.
BREN: And also, maybe I thought that I was attracted to male characters when really it was that I related to them in a gender way.
ROWAN: Oh, what a mood.
BREN: Yeah.
ROWAN: So I—I feel like I have that energy of like, relating, like thinking that I fancied the—actually yeah, thinking about it. The—the two examples I gave earlier, Gordo from Lizzie McGuire or Xander from. The idea of like, oh, yeah, I'm attracted to these men. No, I wasn't and it was because it was like, okay, these are like awkward nerds who are like, not lucky in romance. It's not lucky in life, just sort of chilling out, not necessarily feeling like anything special. And I was like oh okay, maybe now I can acknowledge the fact that this was not because I had a crush on these boys, it's because I was like oh no I'm too much like this. Too much this energy. Not even not necessarily the gender way, which is a ner—eh— personality way. And also like them having these—let's say Xander because he was a bit weird about his having crushes on people and I really didn't kind of have that sort of energy. But Gordo has very like quiet, a very quiet crush on Lizzy through much of the series. Justice for Gordo, truly a campaign like, they were meant to be doing a remake of that show. And if—if she had not been married to Gordo, I genuinely think that there are people—people that would have been Ryan's. So I guess it's glad—it's good that it got canceled because I don't know if they needed to take that risk. Those two end games, the original OTP. Love— love this two. Anyway, not this episode is not about me and my for heterosexual characters from my childhood to get together, it's about you and your movies that made you queer. So do you have a third one to—to bring to the table?
BREN: Well, speaking of whether or not you're attracted to men, and whether this fictional male character is actually attractive. This has been one of the hardest things to untangle for me, much harder actually, then being attracted to women. And I keep talking about this in this very like binary gendered way. But I think that's—that's kind of just what happens to you and how you end up being forced to talk about bisexuality. I wanted to talk about the Hunger Games series and love triangles.
ROWAN: That came out of absolutely nowhere and I love to. I— we love a good love triangle discussion on here.
BREN: I didn't—I didn't warn you about this?
ROWAN: No, you didn't. We've not had uh people necessarily talk about love triangles in these types of guest episodes. But we have had some hot takes about love triangles, which is always fun.
BREN: Yeah.
ROWAN: So I love—I love to talk about good love triangle. What was going on with the Hunger Games for you?
BREN: So I think this is gonna turn into a hot take situation.
ROWAN: Love it.
BREN: So I was not a shipper when it came—when it came to The Hunger Games. Like I don't have a strong feeling either direction. Gale, Peeta, whatever. Huge crush on Jennifer Lawrence in the film, though.
ROWAN: Yeah, correct.
BREN: Of course. She's a woman and she looks like a cat, like in the face. And that's my type. But Katniss is pulled between two men, which feels I think for the majority of viewers, like a very heterosexual situation. But I had so many feelings about it when I first saw it in theaters, which was when I believe I was in like my first relationship with a man at the time. Especially when the later films started coming out. She is like kind of caught between two men, but it's more—it's more of a love quadrangle, and there's a man, there's a man, there's Katniss, and there's trauma. And the trauma is much more important relationship there in the films. It's about—a lot of it is about trauma, much more than any of it is about romance. But the relationship with Peeta throughout the series could be real, could not be real, we don't know. Because it's so— it is sensationalized. It is a performance, even if there's something real underneath it. And through the years, uh I'm—I am married to a man. And there's a lot of pressure to behave one way or another, about that relationship and in that relationship from all sides. And the performance of that relationship. And that relationship with my own gender in tandem with my partner's gender. And what that means other people think about us. What it makes other people think about our sex life. What it makes other people think about the roles in our relationship, it kind of—at a certain point, it starts feeling like it doesn't matter what that really is, it matters more what other people outside, whether that's like, in the fiction of The Hunger Games, where it's an audience, it's the government, it's the rebellious faction. Or in real life, people watching the film and projecting what they want to be real in—in the fiction. I feel caught in that and I got so emotional, and through that whole series, as a young adult, I think when that was coming out. And still, like, if I watch it again, I still feel that way. Because it feels that the—the perception of what the relationship is, is more important than the reality of what it is and the people inside of it. And how like that pressure and that assumption kind of dissolves what's real—or it can dissolve what's real. It starts feeling like it doesn't matter that much inside. I'm getting very deep about this like, like deeply emotional.
ROWAN: No, but that's—that's fair. And like also the like that is a motif that is like quite literally baked into the plot of those later films because of Peeta's memory loss.
BREN: Yes.
ROWAN: like what and the uh—and them having to him having to rely on her, and her having to rely on him to—to remember what's real, like they have that game like real or not real. So that actually is like a whole other level of like, reality and like relationship on to it.
BREN: The real or not real makes me cry.
ROWAN: I—I like oh my god. Now I'm like, maybe I just want to—maybe I wanted to just
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